VVC 2007: Gender and race!

[springgreen]

Because I am insane, I decided to try and do a tally of race and gender in this year's VVC Premieres, as seen from my DVDs. Even though I generally try to pay attention to these things, I don't think I really noticed gender or race things while watching the VVC 2006 DVDs. This time round, I paid more attention because a) laurashapiro has been showing some older vids so I have a better sense of the vidding world outside of Random Things I Download, b) the discussion afterward about "Women's Work" and "300," and c) laurashapiro talking about her Sekrit Feminist Vidding Agenda.

It was rather odd watching the 2007 premieres because they're different from most of the vids on my hard drive -- a lot more male-centric shows, for one. I didn't quite realize till now just how much I self-selected when it came to vids and TV shows. I tend to like things better when there are female protagonists or several women in the ensemble, and I tend to focus on the women more, which means I seek out vids on women more.

I am too lazy to link individual vids so I point you to: VVC 2007 Premieres first half | second half

I tallied 32 vids on the DVDs. For the male/female divide, I was a little strict. Things counted as "F" if there was a female POV and there wasn't too much about men. I counted "F/M" for vids that seemed to have fairly equal weight between the men and the women, though in some of the ensembles, the weight skewed more toward the men. I also separated out ensemble vids from romance vids. I counted "M" for vids that were from a male POV and was mostly about men.

For the POC count, I basically counted any vid in which a POC appeared on screen, so it's divided between "blink of an eye" POC appearances (just a few clips, even if it's a fairly main character of the show) and "main-ish" POC appearances, in which the POC seemed to have a fairly significant number of clips (aka, anything more than 3).

M: 13
F/M: 11
F: 9
POC: 17
Total vids: 32

M: Moons of Jupiter, It's Not Over, Seven Nation Army, I Remember, Cathain, Bankshot, Spiriti, Sick Cycle Carousel, Lifetime Piling Up, The Wind That Shakes the Barley, Tamacun, The Trouble with Poets, Woodstock

F/M: My Happy Ending, Rodeohead, Men in Black, Signal to Noise, Head over Feet, Want, West of Her Spine, The Loyal, Nothing New, Another Sunday (We Built This City), Southwood Plantation Road

F: (Sittin' on) the Dock of the Bay, Synthesizer, Women's Work, Falling from the Sky, The Adversary, Cold as It Gets, Cosmia, Dreams Are Not My Home

POC: Moons of Jupiter, Rodeohead, Signal to Noise, Bankshot, Want, Lifetime Piling Up, The Loyal, Women's Work, Falling from the Sky, Tamacun, Cold as It Gets, Another Sunday (We Built This City), Cosmia, Southwood Plantation Road, Woodstock

As you can see, I was really pushing the categories for a few. I also got more and more tired toward the end, which is why earlier vids with one woman count as "M" (Seven Nation Army) and later vids with one woman count as "F/M" (SGA).

This looks pretty good at first. But for the F/M breakdown, 4 are ensemble casts, and three of the four are weighted toward men (Firefly, Torchwood, SGA -- fourth one is BSG). "Rodeohead" is less weighted toward men than "Men in Black" and "Another City," but it's still largely Mal's POV, with a few River POV/starring-River sections in it. Four more from F/M are romances (My Happy Ending, Head over Feet, Southwood Plantation Road, Nothing New), one of which is male POV (Nothing New).

The last three of the F/M category are Want, West of Her Spine and The Loyal, which are very nominally F/M. I stuck Want in F/M just because of the female singer; most of the actual clips are of men, and I've seen the Yellow-Eyed Demon referred to as male online. So I'm not sure if there is any F in the F/M, but I stubbornly stuck it in there anyway because I like to pretend it is about the demon's predatory female gaze on Sam and Dean (as you can probably tell, I don't watch SPN).

The Loyal is also a problematic fit in the category, since it's mostly male POV and the main female character first appears naked and pregnant among cows. I was a bit squicked by the race bit as well, but will touch on that later. I haven't seen Children of Men, so I have no idea what it's about. But it seems like the woman is holy because she's had a baby in a land with rampant infertility and the guy ends up protecting her and hi! The problematic just writes itself! Again, may be completely misreading the source, but that's what I got from the vid.

And West of Her Spine, which is probably the most problematic of the three. I knew about the vid coming in, and I love how creepy it is and how it nicely gets the viewer expecting one thing and then skewers the expectations. I also like it as a commentary on creepy love. On the other hand... the only reason it's in F/M instead of M is because of how much screen time the women get. Unfortunatley, most of that screen time is on the women as objects of desire or as literal objects, chopped up, stuffed in refrigerators, tied into parcels. This bit is creepy, but intentionally so, so while the images bug the heck out of me, the vid doesn't at this point. What does bug me is that a vid that initially comments on violence against women and women's bodies and literally making women into inanimate objects ends up focusing on the relationship between two men. And that's the part that I don't think is intentionally creepy, so it disturbs me much more.

Also, for the F/M vids, we're largely missing relationships that aren't M-F romances. There's friendship and mutual sparring in Another Sunday and Signal to Noise (yay Teyla!), and brother-sister in Rodeohead. I read the Torchwood vid as having a lot of romance, but that is me just gathering things from the vid. But there seem to be very few vids focusing on non-romantic male-female relationships in this set. Is that normal? One of the reasons why I liked jarrow272's Club Vivid vid so much was that it is about friendship! Between both sexes!

Of the 9 F vids, one is Women's Want and the other is The Adversary, which I stuck in F because... I was tired. It is not really F. It is more F/M. Or plain M and dead F. I think? I have not seen Twin Peaks. But eight vids focusing solely on women, yay!

For the POC vids, 9 out of the 17 were "blink" vids. Aka, blink and you'll miss the POC! These include: Moons of Jupiter, Men in Black, I Remember, Want, Lifetime Piling Up, Women's Work, Falling from the Sky, Tamacun, Cold as It Gets. I know Martha's a big part of Dr. Who, but she's barely in Moons of Jupiter, and while I think the Asian woman is part of the ensemble in Torchwood, she's barely in Men in Black. Vids with POC as part of an ensemble were: Rodeohead and Signal to Noise. I'm not sure how to classify The Loyal. As mentioned, the black woman does play a fairly large role in the vid, but the vid is largely from the whtie man's POV and I am still disturbed of the image of her dropping her clothes while standing among cows! Though I am glad that there were other shots of her laughing and being normal instead of being a holy mother. (ETA: notes on the movie here and here)

The four vids with a fairly strong POC presence were Bankshot, Another Sunday, Southwood Plantation Road and Woodstock. Of these, Bankshot had a good deal of the black man (Denzel Washington?), but he's one POC among... everyone else (ETA: notes on Bankshot). Woodstock also has a black man, but the main character of the vid seems to be the white man (I have no idea what their names are, sorry). (ETA: notes on Woodstock) Even so, I was actually startled to see those two vids and was like, "Hey! POC!" I like Another Sunday not just because it has sparkly disco effects and bouncy music and literal vidding of the lyrics but also because it has scenes in which only Teyla and Ronon are on the screen! Imagine! Just POC in a few shots! And I liked that Jescaflowne meant it as an ensemble vid; the few SGA vids I've seen tend to focus on the two guys who keep being slashed together. As in, pre-SGA-AU-fic-debate, given what I saw discussed of SGA online (and not in deadbro, I would not have thought there were POC in it at all. And Southwood Plantation Road seemed to be pretty well balanced between Marth and Ten, as opposed to Bankshot and Woodstock, where you could tell the focus was on the white people. Also, Martha is hot.

Finally, there is Cosmia! One vid out of 32 that has a POC as the focus of the vid! (ETA: notes on the problematics of Ofelia as POC)

In conclusion, I should probably do this with my VVC 2006 DVDs for comparative purposes, but I am too lazy to. Also, hopefully I will get around to posting vid impressions sometime...

Comments

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Umm, the gentleman you refer to as possibly Denzel Washington in your post is Ian Lester and he is the actual lead of the tv show "Hustle" (Bankshot vid). IMO, he doesn't look at all like Denzel, but I guess your views vary.

He has a prominent place in Bankshot, setting events into motion and interacting with the rest of the cast (including Stacy - a female character who does some nifty things in this vid) but, again IMO, his is the dominant focus and POV.

[springgreen.livejournal.com]

Heh, I fail at visual ID! I had thought for some reason that Hustle was a movie -_-;;. I didn't realize he was the lead, that is cool, and that plus the caper-ness makes me want to pick up the show.

I was debating on counting Bankshot as F or F/M because of Stacy; my tallying of F/M vids is pretty varied (and by "varied" I mean "completely subject to personal whim"). I think I was also influenced by the context I was watching the vid in -- before sitting down and counting, I had come away from my first viewing of the DVDs thinking "Wow. That is very male and very white, and even though I intellectually knew that, I am a bit sad at how many shows featured in there are centered around white men." So when I saw Bankshot, my gut reaction was to look at the cast and think, "Heh. Token woman, token character of color. Why fandom? Why??" But I am glad that it does not seem to be the case in the show.

Also, I forgot to note in the post that there are so few women of color. I think I counted Martha, Zoe, Boomer, other pilot in BSG whose name I do not know, blink-and-you-miss-them women of color in SPN, woman from Children of Men, Teyla and Ofelia. And as Mely notes above, including Ofelia is being very broad with defitions, Teyla and Boomer are not human, the other BSG pilot is only in a few clips, and Zoe is part of an ensemble. Also, the only WOC who seems to get a POV in the vids is Martha.

[oyceter]

And Asian woman in Torchwood!

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

There are very few characters of color in the shows that were represented in the Premiere show. It sucks, but what do ya do? There were two Dr Who vids - one was about the Doctor and the other was about Martha and the Doctor. The entire why fandom why? question? Irks me when we talk about fanvids since we are a visual representation of the source.

Bankshot - imo, and again -I know little of the source as well, is easily parsed as being from Micky's POV. I can see how sheer exhaustion would impede your reading of the vid - but I think when you watch solely to concentrate on a specific reading agenda - you will miss stuff like that. Especially since we are, again, a visual representation of the source and so MUCH of the art of what we do hinges on visual cognition, if you do have problems with parsing these kinds of things -perhaps you should ask for help in compiling a list such as this.

Also, Denzel Washington is not the only black actor making movies, it just felt that way in the late 90s.

[springgreen.livejournal.com]

There are very few characters of color in the shows that were represented in the Premiere show. It sucks, but what do ya do? There were two Dr Who vids - one was about the Doctor and the other was about Martha and the Doctor. The entire why fandom why? question? Irks me when we talk about fanvids since we are a visual representation of the source.

Well... I have a problem with just saying "what do you do?" Because I do think that one of the first steps to changing an imbalance in representation is to notice that imbalance and to talk about it. Like you say, COC are vastly underrepresented in most fannish sources, but even so, the choice to not vid them is a choice, even if it is probably an unconscious one.

I think many institutional factors work toward that choice, such as most of the main characters of shows being white, which naturally influences vidders to vid more white people, as there is a) more source and b) more discussion and love of main characters. But there's also things like the dearth of Gunn vids in the Angel fandom and the general lack of discussion of COC in fandom.

Fanvids are a visual representation of the source, but some of that representation is also the vidder's choice. Frex, Luminosity and your vid on SPN as a critique of the visual representation of women in SPN. And vidders could choose to vid more movies with POC, or to watch more shows with POC, or to focus on the COC in ensemble shows.

I don't think it's an easy thing to increase COC and POC in vids. I think it takes conscious effort to not only include the COC already in fannish shows, but to also watch more source that includes POC, to check how often POC appear in clips in an ensemble vid, and etc. And not making that conscious effort generally results in more vids about white people because that is what is in the media and talked about in fandom at large.

Thanks for the critique on Bankshot; I will rewatch.

[harriet-spy.livejournal.com]

The entire why fandom why? question? Irks me when we talk about fanvids since we are a visual representation of the source.


This comment really puzzles me coming from someone who just produced what I've heard (still haven't had a chance to watch the con DVDs!) such a resistant reading of SPN.

Also, since most drama/sci-fi shows nowadays feel impelled to include at least one CoC in the credits, I find the argument that there's insufficient material to construct vids or nothing to say about these characters a little hard to accept. (It's also an argument, as I'm sure you know, that has been and still is used to "justify" the exclusion of women from fanworks, so I'm a bit startled to find it deployed here so...straightforwardly.) It really pains me to say this, but the CoC representation in vids (as counted here and for earlier years in my post linked above) is pitiful and simply cannot be explained by the argument that CoCs aren't sufficiently represented in the show. Gunn was on Angel for four and a half seasons. Teyla's been on SGA for three. Ronon has been on for two and is conventionally incredibly hot and has good slashy chemistry with the lead if one is inclined to see such things. And on and on. As long as CoC remain underrepresented in source, it's not stunning that there will be some underrepresentation in vids, but "what can you do?" From fandom? Which prides itself on its ability to rewrite, rework, reinvent source? Really?

[heresluck]

I think you're right that fandom "prides itself on its ability to rewrite, rework, reinvent source," and that in terms of COC we could be applying ourselves more consciously to working with what the source gives us; reinventing is a lot easier in fic, but that doesn't mean it's impossible in vids.

Also, since most drama/sci-fi shows nowadays feel impelled to include at least one CoC in the credits, I find the argument that there's insufficient material to construct vids or nothing to say about these characters a little hard to accept.

I confess I'm torn about this. I don't know SGA at all, and my knowledge of AtS is minimal at best, so I am perfectly willing to accept your observations about those shows. But as somebody who would dearly love to vid Zoe (from Firefly) and Mahandra (from Wonderfalls), I'm not convinced that appearing in the credits is necessarily a sign that there's enough about that character to put together a compelling vid. And this isn't only true of CoC; I can't think of any Firefly vids focused on Wash or Kaylee either, although of course they and the other less-prominent characters (like Zoe and Book) show up in ensemble vids to some extent, and I don't know of any Wonderfalls vids that focus on anyone but Jaye; in this sense Mahandra is no worse off than, say, Aaron or Sharon.

My point is NOT that it's therefore "okay" that there are so few vids focused on CoC; my point is that I think the patterns oyceter and others have identified show us (among other things) just how much is at stake in the difference between having a CoC as a primary character (as the lead, or even as one of two or four leads) and having a CoC as a secondary or minor character, or as one part of a fairly large ensemble.

gwyn_r's Book vid demonstrates that sometimes there's more source than we think, especially if we can find a song that allows us to make the best use of our limited options, and so, yeah, as vidders we need to pony up and take on that challenge, absolutely. But I think it would be really interesting to do another tally of vids on recent VVC vid sets and take a look at how many of the vids focus on the primary characters within a fandom and how many on secondary or minor characters, with an eye towards where the CoC show up -- or could show up and don't. (The difference between primary and secondary is subjective to some extent, but a little discussion would probably turn up some broad if incomplete consensus.)

I'd be curious to see the extent to which we can attribute the paucity of CoC in vids to their having been relegated to minor roles in the shows -- again, not as an excuse for that paucity, but to have models for the kinds of reclamation and recovery we might want to do, and perhaps, if the numbers justify it, as a way of making visible the very real effects of having not only too few CoC on TV, but also too little screen time (too few major storylines, too little development or onscreen backstory, too little of substance to do) for the CoC we do have.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

I was being flip and I apologize. I also react rather negatively to the argument I felt was being made in the post, mainly "I did not like this vid because I wanted it to be a completely different vid" which I don't think is a solid criteria for critique. My typical response to that - to people wanting a specific vid, is that is great - they should make that vid. And you did! So, go you.

Vidders can be a contrary lot however and I don't know that guilting them is the way to go - or at least not the way to get really quality Ronon vids made. I mean, I immediately get on the defensive about making vids featuring women and for a m/m slash vidder, I do a hell of a lot of Female Character focused vids (my VVC Premiere vids: Peacekeeper (Buffy), Two Words (ensemble), Ring Them Bells (Beatrix), Be So Glad (John/Stark) and Women's Work (meta?). If the debate is CoC, I start thinking about the only nearly finished SGA vid I have on my hard drive, which happens to be a Teyla vid and it SUCKS and I feel guilty that it sucks and I haven't yet figured out a way to make it not suck and therefore viable. Then I feel guilty for not vidding Gunn, even though I never vidded Wes or Fred or Connor, either. It's not like I don't want to vid them or wouldn't vid any of them, but my time and my ideas can be limited and I only start a project when I *have* to make a vid - the idea and the song come together and there is no way I can stop myself from letting it pour out. Making me feel self concious about whether or not the idea is about a character of color is not conducive to getting my ass in front of premiere, even when I have a fantastic idea for a vid. You don't want a reluctant vidder - a reluctant vidder finishes no vids!

But you are right - there should be more vids about everyone in the fandom, not just the white boys in love. I think the way to get more of these vids (and I think this has worked in the past because I totally feel there are a great deal more vids these days about female characters than before) is to find the vidders who make vids about the characters you want to see and let them know how awesome you think it is they are vidding this. And tell your friends and have their friends tell their friends and suddenly there is this audience and where there is an audience, there will be a vidder. I mean, the vidder way back in the Buffy fandom day who did those intricate AUs where Spike and Buffy were in love but then she got pregnant and he wasn't ready, so he left her and she cried and cried and he drank a lot and then Buffy had a miscarriage and Dawn yelled at Spike to shape up and then Spike came back and they were back in love and had sex, even she had an audience.

This is where I felt the tone of this post was dismissive toward vids like Bankshot and Woodstock, which are extremely well done vids featuring just the thing the poster seems to want to see, which is a vid that centers around a character of color. I then got flip and a bit cranky and, again, I apologize.

Again, I don't actually think the goal of the post is not valid or something I do not support, but I think the method is flawed. I don't think anything is accomplished by pointing at a group of artists and saying, that they, as a group, are not doing what you want them to be doing. I think a much better approach is either make the thing you want to see or find the people making the thing you want to see and give them support. Of course, I heard the other day that there is this thing called differing opinions and I am sure that there are many on this issue.

[springgreen.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry it sounded like I was being dismissive toward Bankshot and Woodstock. I enjoy the vids, but I am still irritated by the lack of COCs in vids in general.

Also, my post was written not as an attempt to guilt people into doing anything. I am a POC, and this is how I view things. I understand that anyone can come in and read my posts however they like. It sounds a little to me like you're implying that people should not write posts like these because they make other people feel guilty. I'm sure you don't mean to imply this. It's just I've had this reaction to a lot of my posts on race and racism on my other LJ as oyceter, and at this point, I'm really not writing to make other people feel guilty or proud or anything.

My problem with the idea to get more of these vids made is that there are so few made in the first place. Also, I do try and find vids and shows and books and media on POC, and I pimp them. And I do plan on attempting to learn to vid just so I can get some of these vids made. But I do not think that the burden should lie on fans of color and allies. I also do think that something is accomplished by pointing to a group of artists and saying that in general, they are producing things that are upholding an institution of oppression. It's awareness. And it's not just awareness for vidders, but awareness for viewers. My personal experience in fandom has been that if I and other POC and allies don't talk about these things, no one will.

[heresluck]

...and now I see that, in response to your note to the '05 and '06 census, somebody already raised the issues I went on about in my previous comment! My apologies -- I didn't mean to belabor the point.

[heresluck]

Heh -- and my response when I saw an early draft of Bankshot was to say "OMG it's Henry V!" because I suck at actor names. (I saw Adrian Lester as Henry V in London four years ago and he was AMAZING.) I would now want to see Hustle even if Zen's vid hadn't completely charmed me, which it did.

[shewhohashope.livejournal.com]

Ian Lester doesn't look much like Denzel. And I wouldn't say that he's the lead in 'Hustle'. Danny always seemed liked the most prominent character to me, and Mickey isn't even in the show anymore.

I've always kind of felt that Mickey and Stacey were tokens - not that the characters themselves are problematic (aside from Stacey being 'the bait' in every con ever) - , they just seemed to be making up the numbers, so to speak. One black man, one woman (no women of colour or LGBT protagonists, of course). This wasn't helped by Mickey being replaced by another male black actor.

[springgreen.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the Denzel thing is my bad.

This wasn't helped by Mickey being replaced by another male black actor.

O_o!

[melina123.livejournal.com]

I have to admit that I see it very differently. I had so much trouble with Hustle this year because I do feel that Mickey is the show's lead, as well as the group's leader, and I really felt his absence. He is not always the focus of each story, but he feels very prominent to me in most episodes in seasons 1-3.

The tokenism never occured to me either, at least not before seeing Mickey's replacement -- but maybe I cut Kudos a break because of Spooks, which has had some very interesting things to say about race, gender and ethnicity over the years. I never felt that way about Stacey, though, and I don't feel her sexuality is used in an exploitative way.

[springgreen.livejournal.com]

but maybe I cut Kudos a break because of Spooks, which has had some very interesting things to say about race, gender and ethnicity over the years.

Oh, that's interesting! I keep being so conflicted about Spooks.

On one hand... LOVE! Danny! Plotlines about racism! Talk of immigration!

On the other hand... SPOILERS through Spooks 5x07 greyed out: white male lead replaced with other white male lead. Only one POC in the ensemble cast. That one POC replaced with another POC (Zaf). I am happy that they did replace Danny with another POC, but I am sad that all the replacements feel approximately similar (white male for white male, white woman for white woman, etc.) because it means the racial dynamic of the cast stays the same. And I have been really sad that Zaf has gotten almost no meaty storylines at all.

And I keep being leery of the fact that most of the POC we see are "the bad guys." I do think Spooks does a really good job in bringing this to our attention and in problematizing it, and like you say, I think it says some incredibly interesting things about race and gender and ethnicity.

I don't know. I am conflicted because I love Spooks' storylines and Danny and the politics, but I also wish there were a POC lead. Or more than one POC in the cast.

[shewhohashope.livejournal.com]

My problem with Spooks was the same as my problem with Sleeper Cell. If the only Muslims I see on television are going to be terrorists, I'd rather not see any.

[melina123.livejournal.com]

I agree it's a problematic issue, but I think they're both outstanding shows.

Also, a major plot point in Sleeper Cell was that the undercover FBI agent was also a Muslim (a convert, but I don't think that matters). That was a huge part of what made him such an effective infiltrator of the cell.

[springgreen.livejournal.com]

Ugh, I know. I just. Zaf! Potential to actually do things with tropes! I keep wishing for a really interesting storyline with Zaf and his race and how it must play into his career because a Middle-Eastern-looking man in the security services? Ripe for stories! I loved the moment in the S4 premiere, where the white bad guy tells the police something like, "Look at us! Who do you think is the terrorist?" because it was actual commentary.

I do also vaguely remember a Middle-Eastern-looking man being detained as a terrorist in S1, even though he was innocent, but that is really nowhere near enough to counterbalance the parade of Muslim terrorists.

And I wish there were other POCs on the cast as well, so exploring and debunking things like "Middle Eastern = terrorist" wouldn't be "Look, here is a POC whose life is all about his POC-ness" because hopefully then there would be other POCs to balance it out. And it would be good to have more commentary on how there are non-Middle-Eastern Muslims as well, aside from the little bit we got in one S5 ep.

[melina123.livejournal.com]

I feel conflicted in even trying to discuss this, like I'm sure to say something idiotic or offensive. I'm also conscious of the fact in talking about the UK shows, things have a different cultural context, and there are different demographic realities, such as a much smaller percentage of black (I almost typed African-American) people in the country as a whole. Maybe PoC's in Britain are as poorly represented in their security services as, say, Arabic speakers are in the FBI and CIA, and there's an intent to reflect that for story purposes (e.g., the episode where Adam played the Circassian Muslim).

On the one hand, I see how replacing a woman with a woman or Danny with Zaf feels like tokenism, but on the other, I feel that Zoe, Fiona and Ros have been such different characters, and I understand them wanting to keep a balance between male and female leads/characters. That just strikes me as a different issue than race/ethnicity.

And I keep being leery of the fact that most of the POC we see are "the bad guys."

I understand, but to my memory, that's mostly in the context of characters with an ethnic background in the middle east, and it would be hard to do any kind of realistic show about terrorism these days that didn't explore that. I think Zaf was created to provide a kind of balance and show the other side, and there have been occasional guest characters (Alexander Siddig) that show the complexity of it too.

No easy answers, sadly.

[springgreen.livejournal.com]

*nods* Heh. Talking about race can be scary.

Just given politics and demographic percentages, I am guessing that POCs are poorly represented in security services

On the one hand, I see how replacing a woman with a woman or Danny with Zaf feels like tokenism, but on the other, I feel that Zoe, Fiona and Ros have been such different characters, and I understand them wanting to keep a balance between male and female leads/characters.

Ooh, yeah, sorry, I was sloppy about the gender ratios. You're right, I don't feel the tokenism for women as much, because as you mention, we've gotten a lot of very different women who have almost all gotten very good and very different storylines. I am still a little bothered by just how many times they recruit the girlfriend/wife/lover of their target to bring him down and how she often ends up dead, but it's a lot more balanced out by having many cool women in the main cast. And! Older women! More than one! I cheer.

And I'd rather have a character of color replace another character of color than have no characters of color, but I wish they'd replaced some of the women with women of color, or something. Because I do think keeping the gender balance is also important.

I understand, but to my memory, that's mostly in the context of characters with an ethnic background in the middle east, and it would be hard to do any kind of realistic show about terrorism these days that didn't explore that.

*nods* Yeah. And I do think Spooks generally does try to look at things like immigration and larger racial politics. Where I get the mental disconnect is in the main cast. I cling to Zaf! I am admittedly biased here, because I have been dying to have more Zaf, but I feel he's really underutilized. So is Jo, but since other women have gotten meaty parts and continue to get meaty parts (Ros!), it is not as large of a problem, though it is still a problem.

I have to admit, I totally yelled at the Adam as Circassian Muslim decision because I wanted Zaf to actually get to do something. Like, we know a good deal about Adam and his angst and Ros and Harry and Fiona and Danny and Zoe and Tom, but right now, most of what I know about Zaf is... he asked Jo to be his roommate. I keep feeling like they have this huge awesome storyline potential with Zaf and terrorists and commentary on stereotyping and looking Middle Eastern while in the security services, and it keeps skirting around it and never quite going there.

/gets off soapbox. Sorry! You have hit two seasons worth of Zaf whining from me in one giant comment! ;) also he is really hot and i want to see zaf in angsty manpain!

[shewhohashope.livejournal.com]

I know what you mean, I miss Mickey too, especially since I find most of the other characters (well, Danny) vaguely annoying.

See, I think Mickey the character is equally as important as any of the others in the ensemble. But Danny is the POV character, which sets him apart from all the others to my mind. We're introduced to the team in Hustle when he joins them.

Just the fact that almost every episode the team needs Stacey to attract/distract a man in order for the con to succeed - while the camera does that creepy pan up and down her body thing while she's (dressed up as a Bollywood dancer/in a Wonderwoman costume in two episodes I've seen recently) - is problematic to me. Whether I'd find it exploitative on it's own in the context of a history of television shows not exploiting women sexually is moot.

There's nothing wrong with Mickey's replacement, or with the fact that they (possibly consciously) chose to replace a CoC with another. It just feels kind of cheap to replace a black man with a black man, like they want the numbers to add up. And what's wrong with another woman joining the team? Stacey probably gets lonely.

[melina123.livejournal.com]

I'd agree that Danny is initially our entry into the group, but I don't think that's carried through after an episode or two. Mickey has consistently felt like the lead character to me. I have no proof :) and others can definitely see it differently, but that's how the show's always felt to me.

Just the fact that almost every episode the team needs Stacey to attract/distract a man in order for the con to succeed - while the camera does that creepy pan up and down her body thing while she's (dressed up as a Bollywood dancer/in a Wonderwoman costume in two episodes I've seen recently) - is problematic to me.

For me, it's not. I think it's the nature of the show to make fun of everything, including sex and sexuality. Danny and Mickey have both been stark naked. Besides, the scenes that do the creepy looking at Stacey are from the POV of the mark, usually, and fully intended to show what a leering jackass he is, IMO. Those actually come across to me as the opposite of exploitative -- it's not Stacey who lacks the power in those scenes, it's the leering jackass being lead around by his dick :)

There are also episodes where Stacey is not using her sexuality, just her overall appeal, like those with a female mark, or when she played the girl geek. That's not very different from what the guys do.

I agree there's no reason why there can't be another woman, but this hasn't been a cast that's had much turnaround, either (compared to, say, Spooks). I can see them not wanting to add other full-time characters.

[shewhohashope.livejournal.com]

Fair enough.

I do see the irony, it's so overdone that it's hard not to. I still find it creepy, though. And there's also the fact that the one woman must be stunningly beautiful and fairly young, while the men are allowed to be older/not conventionally attractive.

I don't know. Having just one woman feels like there is something lacking, all the time. And as far as POC characters, the show is set in London, mainly (I believe?) and the population of London is 45% Black and Minority Ethnic. Where are all the South Asians in TV London. I've lived at various times in Hayes and in the Southall area and been at schools where the majority of students are of South Asian descent.

[oyceter]

There's nothing wrong with Mickey's replacement, or with the fact that they (possibly consciously) chose to replace a CoC with another.

Ohhhhh! Sorry, I misread your earlier comment and thought they had replaced the actor for Mickey with another black actor, while keeping the character the same, ergo the bogglement.

[harriet-spy.livejournal.com]

I do feel that Mickey is the show's lead, as well as the group's leader

For what it's worth, that's always how I read it. Danny's the pretty boy and gets plenty of camera time, but Mickey's the lead.